hi welcome to the website 101 podcastI'm your host Sean Smith and today I'mjoined by Emily Lewis and Leia Alcantarafrom upright umbrella ladies pleaseintroduce yourselfso I'm Leia I'll Contra I'm a partnerand lead designer at bright umbrella soI make things look good for clients andI also implement their websites in CMS'sawesome yeahI'm partner and lead developer brightumbrella and I take Leia's designs andtranslate them into code and templatesfor those CMS's and I also do a littlebit of CMS development as well Wow sweetso today's topic that we're going totalk about is accessibility andaccessibility maybe not everybody knowswhat this is would you be able to helpdefine it for the delay person not ourpeers but for people who own businessesand have websites and what accessibilityentails mm-hmm so it's really as simpleas if your website is accessible thatmeans it can be used as effectively bypeople with disabilities as by thosewithout so for example someone who'scolorblind could still choose betweendifferent color products on ane-commerce site because the productshave good text descriptions so you knowin short an accessible website hasdesign and code in place that allows thelargest group of people to work andinteract with your site all right wellthat sounds very helpful but I'mwondering maybe a lot of small businesspeople may not think that accessibilityis so important like if I'm blind orextremely vision impaired do I is itreally all that important to me as abusiness owner to service somebody likethatwell to address the point aboutblindness you know that's onesample of accessible you know disabilityand it's one area that accessibilityattempts to address but it's justbecause a blind person may not use yourproduct for example maybe you're sellingskiing equipment and you're thinking ablind person may not use those productswait a second that well you could bewrong because there are people who doand they also could be buying for afriend or a family member or maybe whatthey want to use your website to findout your location so it's not aboutwhether a blind person would use yourproduct directly your website contentneeds to be accessible to that personbecause they could have differentreasons for visiting your website ohthat's definitely something that maybe alot of people haven't thought about arethere any other accessibility issuesother than sight issues that we shouldbe concerned about as website ownersyeah absolutely I think one of thebiggest misconceptions you know as youkind of brought up with an example ofblindness that isn't that's only onetype of disability that someone can haveand then there's also a spectrum rightlike all three of us talking on thiscall right now we're corrective lensesso we need absolutely need assistance inorder to navigate life so I'm justtrying to explain that you know therethere's different ways you can definewhat ability even means mm-hmmtaking that thought a little bit in adifferent direction away from vision youknow you also have maybe a teen audienceand there might be young users with ADHDand that can be an issue when you havetoo much information on your websitewhere it might be overwhelming so theynever click through to take action andso making your website accessible to auser who needs focus and claritythat's about having designs that arecleancontent that is clear call to actionsthat are visible and easy to accessdefinitely sounds very important andsomething I had not even thought abouttargeting somebody who has troublefocusing and concentrating on thingsyeah it's it's like Leia said it's it'sa wide spectrum of where ability fallsand your website needs to be able toreach all of those people you know wewere I mentioned skiing earlier wellwhat about a person who injured theirarm while skiing and can't use theirmouse but they want to buy new boots onyour website so you know that personneeds to be able to purchase somethingon your website without a mouse that's apart of web accessibility oh definitelyinteresting is there any sort ofstandard that I should know about as amaybe a do-it-yourselfer or somebody whowants to ensure that their web team istaking care of this for them yeah so I'mnot sure this would be something thatwould be easy for a do-it-yourselfer toaccess in terms of understanding andknowing how to implement because it's alittle bit more complex than ado-it-yourself website is going tosupport this is not this is notsomething that I could just buy like awordpress theme and wear Squarespaceyeah you gonna have accessibility builtin yeah there are WordPress themes it'sbeen a while since I've looked atSquarespace or Wix but federal laws arestarting to require accessibility so itwouldn't surprise me if they wereoffering those um so that's always agood place to start the reality isthough is that you need to be able tovalidate whether those things are trulyaccessible for whatever yourrequirements are as a business so thereare some businesses that are federallymandated to meet specific standards andso a website that might be accessiblesay it let's say it's a wordpress themethat really emphasizes good colorcontrast which is really helpful forpeople with all types of vision issuesbut if it doesn't address keyboardnavigation then that's not the completething so you have to be in on some levelsome some ability to assess whether whatyou're purchasing is truly gonna meetyour needs for accessibility and that'swhen you want to turn to somethingcalled well if you are a certainbusiness that gets federal funding or isserving federal agencies you have tomeet section 508 standards which is au.s. rules for how you build a websiteand ensure that the content isaccessible to the most people possibleso section 508 is what you'd want to belooking for if you're required to meetthose so you don't want to just get awebsite accessible theme you want tomake sure it's 508 accessible and thisis an American requirement and it's onlycertain types of businesses that'scorrect so section 508 is primarily forgovernment agenciesit covers websites but also software andall types of IT but if you are anon-profit who receives federal funds ora higher education institution or apublic K through 12 school in the USthey all need to follow 508 and thentaking it a step further and this isshowing up in the courts lately allprivate and public businesses that havepublic accommodations are required tocomply with the Americans withDisabilities Actwe mean by public accommodations well ifyou have a store for example it needs tohave a ramp for someone to access it ifthere is like stairs this applies towebsites website is considered a publicaccommodation it's your online storeso if you're a restaurant or a bakery ora bank or an inn or an accountant or alaw office like your website simplycovers any business that has a websitepretty much I mean looking at it lookingat it in very broad terms it would covereverybody so I want to step back asecond here and you said section 508 andgovernment regulations in the UnitedStates I know that there are governmentregulations in Canada I'm not a hundredpercent familiar with them and I will goand find some links to include in theshow notes later but for any listenersoutside of Canada United States I'mthere are many other countries that havesome of their regulations and you shouldcheck into that to find out what you'rerequired to do yeah and I think you knowit's a good place to start with wit CAGits WCAG the web content accessibilityguidelines these are not these are nottied to any one country or any one setof laws it's rather a set of standardsor guidelines for people like me andLeia and you Sean I follow that helpensure core accessibility for websitesit's specifically for websites it takesit's an international standard and a lotof countries who do have webaccessibility laws refer to it as partof their requirements so it's a goodplace to startwell definitely add a link to the shownotes to you called it okay we canphonetic pronunciation of an acronym theweb content accessibility guidelinesWCAG Wow having a yeah having astandards to follow was really reallyhelpful so as a let's take the case of areally small business we're not agovernment industry we're not universityor taking public funding I'm running asmall restaurant I'm right I have aflower shop withwebsite what's the business case for meto spend extra money in time to get mywebsite accessible is it am I reallygonna be sued or the police gonna beknocking down my door because I'm notaccessible so let me take this let'stalk about opportunity cost statisticssay that about 20% of Americans and 16%of Canadians have some form ofdisability so if your website have anarticle that will link to as well whichyou shared with me earlier yeahabsolutelyand so by ignoring accessibilitystandards or not seriously looking intothe business case you're literallysaying no to 20% more customerspotentially so that's that's just acrossthe board so that that's a very clearbusiness case again what we said at thevery beginning of the episode anaccessible website reaches the largestamount of audience and that's what allbusinesses want to do and unaccessibleyeah in an unexploded a large portion ofthe population you know and it's it'salso worth mentioning that you know Leiasaid it's making your website accessibleis gonna reach the broadest audiencethat audience also includes searchengines so web accessibilityfundamentally is just really good codingpractices and really good codingpractices are favored by search enginesso everything you're following to makeyour website more accessible to peopleis also going to make your content moreaccessible to search engines bettersearch results mm-hmm more clear searchresults I mean Google only wants toserve search results that its users wantso they're looking for good content ifyour website is accessible it can findyour contentabsolutely one thing that Leia said isit's purposely I think you saidpurposely preventing or stopping usersseems a little bit aggressive thatpeople would be purposely turning downcustomers I feel it would be moreaccidental accidental purposeful the theend result is the same right yeah I meanonce you know then it's purposeful ifyou're not gonna try and address itright good point good pointIII just that that were kind of justjumped out at me a little bit I'm I'm ahundred percent behind accessibility Ijust didn't I know that some of my oldersites I wasn't as concerned about it nowwhen I'm building newer sites I I put asmuch time as I can into accessibility Iprobably need more but again it dependson client budgets not every client hasthe budget to pay for that so it's trueI mean I think one thing that we havefailed to do as developers working withclients is really educate them about thebusiness case for accessibility and andthat means sometimes we need to usestrong language this actually is aserious part of creating a good businesswebsite sure your you are reaching abroader audience but fundamentallyyou're building it on better code that'slike I said more accessible to searchengines but it's also more futurefriendly like there comes really goodbusiness reasons for doing this andemphasizing accessibility should besomething that we're talking to ourclients about that's our job to tellthem and to make sure that theyunderstand it is serious because if youare the one business that has a user whoends up not being able to use yourwebsite and get sued it will be a bigdeal for you and it you keep you can bea small shop and that can happen to youright I mean we buy business insuranceright in case ofan emergency and accessibility buildingaccessibility into your site you know itjust minimizes risk against yourbusiness so it's insurance against yourwebsite and you know Emily kind oftouched on the future friendly so ifGoogle carita then a screen reader canread it that means so can Alexa Googlehome and Cortana so those arevoice-activated right voice-activatedmachines so like any website that iscoded very well and it's accessible isalso accessible to those types ofmachines because really like that's whatwe're building the site you know in partof so it's accessible to these programsand again to dive into another businesscase right so we're talking about youknow minimizing risk increasing yourcustomer base and broad base butfundamentally it's just great forinclusion and diversity and if that'simportant to your business and it shouldbe that's good for your brand and it's areal way to demonstrate that you'recommitted to a larger group of peopleand that could also be used in yourmarketing materials and it's especiallyimportant depending on what type ofbusiness you're running as well - it'ssomething that you can definitely leanon yeah I can't imagine any businessthat wants to increase risk lower theircustomer base and exclude people andthat's that's a recipe for disasterabsolutely it's about it's aboutreframing this conversation away fromthinking that it's quote unquote justabout blind people and I don't haveblind customers to really viewing thisin the broader sense of the what itmeans to your business and to yourcustomer base but just sticking with theblind example recently my my daughterscan we watch MasterChef we're watchingseason 3 right now and there's one ofthe like the strongest contestants inseason 3 oh that's such a good episodeseason yes she she is phenomenal and sheshe has an assistant but that's just tonavigate the kitchen the assistantdoesn't do any of the cooking oranything I would not have thought that ablind person could be a contender forMasterChef so yeah I mean there's noblind people at your store but therethere could be yeah and I think it'sit's about changing our view of what itmeans to have you know a disability or achallenge I sent you a link Shawn inadvance that I hope you can share andit's kind of like real-life experiencesfrom people who are using websites thataren't accessible and it takes you solongthat is amazing it takes you so faroutside what you may have defined as whoare the people with disabilities and howare they using websites we just havereally narrow views and and we have tostart changing that yeah I have thatlink open right now which I willdefinitely share in the show notes andthere's a list of tweets if somebody'sreplant responding to a tweet askingabout your problems with websites andone of them my sister says she hates itwhen she comes across videos that arenot closed captioned she's deafyeah I guess even for myself I watchNetflix with caption 2 yeah I've gotsome hearing loss like it's not a lotbut it annoys my kids sometimes I justdo it so I can always understand whatthey're saying like their accents orsomething yes exactly especially likecockney British accent yeah what yeahexactlyhere's one that's not relevant to me butsomething to considerdyslexic not really seen as a disabilitybut large walls of text is painful alsonever ending sentences and overcomplicated languagethat's where you need a copywriter tohelp you make your content concise yeahand then also be aware of maximum widththere should never be more than 65characters on a line of text or it'shard to track to the next lineyeah and what you're just saying is justgreat user experience right like I meanwe're we're framing all of this in theumbrella of accessibility but greatwebsites that are accessible are justgreat websites they're justwell-designed and well coded yes hereI'm continuing to scroll down because Ireally like this this link it'sdefinitely something that it needs to bemore people need to be aware of I don'thave a problem but my mother hasParkinson's disease and mouseinteractions are really hard for hermm-hmmright if anybody's seen Michael J Foxyou see how are you Sheikh s-- that'sParkinson's right yep imagine trying tofinally navigate with your mouse likethat that's so I can imagine howdifficult that would be great you knowand as our population is aging I reallydo feel like that's why we might beseeing more about accessibility becauseour population is aging the baby boomersare you know they move mountains as theymove through different periods of theirlife and they're gonna be experiencingchallenges with technology and that isgoing to drive more accessibility thatis gonna drive business who are willingand to jump on that innovation track totry and build for this growing audienceand it's going to be more than justwebsites it's going to be all types oftechnology that's impacted by this wellthere's some definitely sounds likewe've got some good ideas for making abusiness case for accessibility so whatabout if I have a website that's I builttwo or three years ago or maybe I got itbuilt by aor her was it was not aware ofaccessibility issues is it easy orpossible to retrofit it to make it moreaccessible I wouldn't say it's easy butit's definitely possible and that'stypically what the path is accessibilityunfortunately has not been put first formost of the history of web developmentit's a short history only 20 yearsexactly so it says a lot that in such ashort time we're starting to focus onthese things but so the fact is thereare a lot of websites out there thataren't accessible that people are havingto go back and it's called remediationum you just make it how whatever yourrequirements are it's a big deal thebigger your website is because if youcan imagine the more pieces that youhave to maintain the more things thathave to be looked at but it is possiblethere's no unfortunately I don't thinkthere's like a simple silver bulletsolution yeah the theme to install thatmagically makes your site accessible soaccessibility is not something that ado-it-yourselfer could easily do theywould need to hire someone like myselfor yourself or someone local to themwho's familiar with web development andcan understand the requirements ofwhat's written in the wkx I think thatif if it's a business that is growingand has ambitious plans then yes youreally should be working with adeveloper who specializes in this andcritically if you fall in one of thosecategories that is federally mandatedbut I don't want to turn anyone off fromthis idea you know in a lot of ways andwe're seeing it in the lawsuits that arecoming out a do-it-yourselfer couldstart with the best of intentions bypurchasing a theme that is marketed asaccessible maybe you know informing thatthemselves of what some of the keythings that should be included are andjust simply establishing that you have abaseline andworking towards accessibility can alsoprevent a lawsuit from beingdramatically negative in terms of themonetary price we have clients who we'veworked with who could not do thecomplete level of accessibility that wasrequired by law so we mapped out a planand that plan is enough to hold up thatwe are working towards it and thatqualifies for their conformance needs asan extension as long as you continue toyeah I mean you just decided not do ityeah yeah but yeah just starting andhaving the intention of you know keepingan eye on that is showing up in court asa legitimate thing to defend when youare unfortunately taken to court becauseof inaccessible a new website you've hada client that was sued because there'swebsite no I'm referring to lawsuitsthat I've been reading oh okay so thebasic idea here would be like I havethis plan to make my site accessible Ican afford to put this much in thisquarter I get some work done the nextquarter I do a little bit more and so onuntil I compliant and during thatprocess I can demonstrate that hey I'mworking towards itso it should help help to mitigate anysort of lawsuit yeah again this is notlegal advice and I'm blanking on thename of the document if you need to meetwick hag level 2a there's a name of forthe report that says what your plan isand if you work in government it'sactually called up a veep at vpatvoluntary product accessibility templateit's essentially like you outlining whatyou've made accessible so far and whatyour plans are to continue towards thatso they have different names but it'sessentially a document that's accessibleon your website so there's like a linkto it just like maybe your privacypolicy might beright and it just it's it's a way tocover yourself but it's also a way toyou know like Leia said it's it can beused as a marketing tool it's a brandingaspect to say you know this is whatwe're investing in this is what we'reinvesting the business in in ouraudience that definitely sounds veryvery positive and something that I thinka lot of businesses should do and Ithink I've probably approached some ofmy other clients and talked aboutabout accessibility again is that it'ssomething I want to spend some more timeon even for my own website which is yeahit's not I'll be honest uh it's not easyto sell not just literally sell in termsof win a project or work with the clientbut we had a client who was federallyrequired to be with CAG Double A andthat's just a particular level of rulesthat they needed to follow and theyhired us specifically for that I was inthe contract but once we started workingwith the people who have to actuallymaintain the website the the people whohave to write the blog post the peoplewho have to upload the images and soforth it was really hard to sell them onwhy they needed to do this even thoughit was literally the law like for themthey had to they had no choice so theywere resisting the change to theirworkflow and what they needed to doright well and there's a lot of you knowum you know to take a step back there'sa lot of businesses that don't quiteunderstand accessibility or this mightbe the first time they're hearing aboutit so they don't actually understand thelevel that you have to do in order tocomplyso like the example that Emily'smentioning here we had to adjust some oftheir branding decisions because thecolor contrasts were not enough so youknow intuitivelywhite on a yellow background is just notreadable and regardless of how prettyyou think it is it's just it's not goingto comply and so youto do some testing and negotiation withthe client to see you know how much canwe push the brand and the look and feelwhile also conforming to theseparticular standards and if that's aconversation you had early in theprocess unfortunately we weren't a partof the early design process we were inthe remediation part of the designprocess so you were coming in to workwith existing signs and codesyeah and help them to get compliantafter it had already been done rightexactly exactly and some things wereeasier as in like we need to make thisfont larger okay that doesn't disturbthe the overall look and feel for thembut the moment we started playing aroundwith colors and trying to make themcompliant and plus giving them theflexibility to choose the colors toobecause that's also you know somethingthat clients definitely want you need tobalance flexibility with the reality ofhaving to comply to these accessiblestandards like I said white on yellow isjust not going to cut it the contrast isa is an important thing yeah I I've evennoticed with just myself sometimes Ihave trouble reading something but mydaughter is 16 she has no problem sayingit I'm just getting old yeah aging is adisability in a lot of ways right I'mall creaky now well and think about theaudience to you so when you're thinkingabout the the business case sometimes sofor this particular client we knew theirprimary audience would be in their 40sand up and so trying to point out thatthe majority of their users need to haveyou know this type of contractor exactly larger tax in this type ofcontrast because that's their customerthat's their audience it's not your 16year old daughter right try tore-emphasize that like at the end of thedayyou know you're really are trying toappeal to your customer base and so youyou were bringing this up and they werestill struggling to accept the fact thatit's yeah so were your clients likeyounger people that they had alreadybeen invested in this design and andthat's that's legit I mean that'sthey've spent money and meetings andthere are stakeholders who are expectingit to look this way and it's very latein the process to start changing it atthis point exactly and that's why if youare in a situation of coming in afterthe fact and decisions have already beenmade then you need to be prepared tospend a lot of time educating andtalking to the key people who are gonnahave to deal with on a daily basis butmost of all if you get new stuff juststart with this if you just start youknow land I because we do full-serviceweb work you know with design anddevelopmentlaya knows all of the design rules forcolor and sizing and contrast and layoutand spacing so I don't have to tell herthose rules but if I am gonna work withan external designer and a differentdeveloper who don't work together youneed to make sure that the designer isthinking about accessibility and thedeveloper is thinking aboutaccessibility and whoever's gonna put itinto WordPress or craft or whatever isthinking about accessibility so it'skind of an accessibility firstperspective from the beginning and thatsaves you so much time in the long runall right yeah so anybody that's workingwith a web developer or an agency theyneed to make sureor they should strongly be encouraged toensure that their their new site isgoing to have accessibility built infrom the get-go beginning yeah yeah yeahand I think if someone is you know abusiness owner that just feels reallyintimidated by the tech of this they cansimply refer to you know the the wickedguidelines that are differentlevels so level a level to 2a and 3athey could just say I want level athat's your bottom line basic stuffthat's required by WIC egg and you canjust say to your developer I need thatlevel just the basic level of WIC hagand that is a great place to start or ifthere's you know shopping themessomewhere look for something that isspecifically telling you the type ofaccessibility it's supporting versusthis is an accessible theme that's justtoo broad of a term you don't need toknow all the rules as a business ownerthat's not your job but you should beable to ask for those those basicstandards that everyone you know worththeir salt in our industry can accessand use to guide their developmentmm-hmm exactly even if your haven'tworked with accessibility before as adeveloper you should be able to read thedocumentation and implement it yeahrightit's it and I know I've done this I'veretrofitted sorry remediated to use theterm I just learned now I remediated apart of one site that I was working onfor another client and yeah there wassome work and I wasn't familiar withaccessibility at that time but I checkedthe documentation and I got it up thereso you mentioned there's three levels towork egg our which at what are any oneof those levels required by the federallaw that you've mentioned 508accessibility is that a double A ortriple a double A so double a includeslevel a so it's kind of what ever camebefore it is included in it so if yourlevel informed when you're not yeah solevel level double a is what's requiredby 508 the 3a really starts getting intoif you have a ton of video andinteractive media where there needs tobe lots of captioning and transcriptsand and things like thatokay so captioning andtranscripts are not required by Americanfederal law at least at this point wellif you are double-a you do need to havecaptions you also need to have a way toprevent like a way to give someonecontrol over the video so you can't justhave a video playing without an abilityto stop or pause it it's that leveltriple-a just goes much much muchfarther in terms of their requirementsso they're much smaller in double-a interms of what you need to do for videoand audio right yeah one thing I want todo is I do want to get transcriptions ofmy podcast eventually but I don't havethe time to listen through it and atthis point I it's a little bit out ofreach for affordability because I'm juststarting out and I'm not making money onit you know I'll have to dig them up butthere are tools there are tools thatwill do this for you they're not perfectbut neither is a human transcriptionistI'm so like a machine translation ortranscription rather mm-hmmthat you know that you can turn to anduse if it's something you want toexperiment with it's always a matter ofjust a truck you know seeing seeingwhat's out there and like I said as ourbaby boomer population is aging we'regonna see more of this as accessible aslawsuits are coming more and more to theforefront of you know consumers andcustomers suing businesses that are notserving their needs there going to bemore companies providing these servicesthey're going to be more tools doingautomation to make it easier for a DIYer or maybe someone who's new to thisand it's just getting started I thinkthe thing is is just to not look at thisas this absolute goal mm-hmm start smalland at least you started identify thethings that you know make sense for yourbusiness like Leia was saying know whoyour audience is if you know yourdemographic then you know if they're 40and up they're my age and older thenyou're probably going to really wantgood color contrast and good font sizesand that's a great place to startif you sell products you want to makesure that your pictures have really goodcaptions that describe them in clearsimple ways including things like colorand then you know that's also just goodjuice for Google which you've mentionedbefore that that's that sounds reallyreally powerful so you've brought uplawsuits a few times do you could youtell us about one or more of theselawsuits like well known issues wherethe business lost or had to pay money orsomethingum provide a link maybe yeah I think Iincluded one what I sent to you earlierthis is not Nestle and it's a very veryrecent so Walmart was sued because oftheir self-service checkout kiosk it wasnot accessible to a blind customer andon for that in and of itself is aproblem but even worse the staff memberwho quote-unquote helped the blindcustomer with the kiosk stole money fromher what yeah and so if this isn't evena website this is the kiosk that's atthe checkout of any retailer and soWalmart is being sued you know thathasn't you know resolved or whatever theright term is for the lawsuit but it'sbig enough that that's going to have animpact on Walmart's brand and you knowthe the fact that the customer was nothelped by the staff member justcompounds it into just a terribleterrible story that it's just picked upall across the news so it has impactbeyond just the lawsuit but also yourkind of public relations and and brandreputation and in terms of we see theimpact on that and I would imagine anybusiness that's using these salts orkiosks is paying attention to this yeahI'm not sure I know a lot of youraudience may be Canadian but there's aa grocery store chain here in the u.s.called winn-dixie and they were alsosued recently because of their websitenot being accessible and they lost itit's just and that's a large chain butyou know the more these large chains arebeing targeted and that therethe news is out there that this stuff isrequired it's going to eventuallytrickle down to your smaller retailersyour smaller businesses because this isstarting to be known this is news thisis business information it's not obscureorganizations it's not obscurebusinesses that are being targeted noteven targeted that are not doing theirjob to make their website accessible totheir customers yeah they're notfollowing the standards they're not asyou mentioned at least in the UnitedStates they need to be double acompliance and a large company is upit's definitely going to have a lot ofcustomers that that need it and even asyou mentioned your small business mighthave some customers that they're unawareof and it just seems to me afterlistening to you talk that it's a goodbusiness case just to prevent myselffrom being sued and to open up mybusiness to a larger audience yeahthat's that's what I hope that we asdevelopers and designers can startchanging the conversation moving in away from you know we've mentioned WIChag and section five the lakes I thinkit's important to know that there areliterally guidelines and rules butthat's not really what we need to talkto our clients about we need to talk tothem about the business case and move itaway from things that seem technical andtowards things that are business-relatedEmily that thank you so much that gave alot of information Leah do you have anyadditional final thoughts before we wrapup sure I mean if you're going to leavewith one thing in terms of the doesaspect is that an accessible website isjust great designit's gonna be an easy-to-use website andhave clear calls to action clear pathsto navigation and all those are justgreat things for any business becauseyou want them to press contact us youwant them to press by now and if youmake it difficult for them with aninaccessible website why would you dothatyep it's you want to improve yourconversions you you want you want yourcustomers to come nothing worse thanhaving customers complain about howdifficult it is to use your website wellthis is a this has been a really greatconversation I learned a lot I hope bymy listeners have learned a lot can youtell us where we can find you on the webyour website your social media thingslike that so you can find us at a brightumbrella com or you can also visit us atctrl-click cast com that's our podcastwhere we we take a much more technicaldesigner developer focused angle on theweb then you know we did in ourconversation today but it's a little bitof a deeper dive into some of thesethings and we do have a couple episodeson accessibility I want to just say thatctrl-click cast is one of my favoritepodcast and then I'm personally ontwitter at Emily Lewis and I'm on atLeia Leiaexcellent thank you so much it wasreally really good thank you forlistening be sure to subscribe and sharewebsite 101 podcast with friends andcolleagues you can find me at website101 podcast comm on twitter username atwebsite 101 pod do you have a questionyou want to ask a topic suggestion or aguest host recommendation send me anemailSean se am at caffeine creations dot CAor visit website 101 podcast.com slashcontact and fill in the form you canfind me personally online at my companywebsite caffeine creations see a CA FFVI n e CR EA tion s CA on LinkedIn withusername caffeine creations hope youenjoyed this episode see you next time09 Bright Umbrella - Acc