Hello and welcome to another episode of the website 101 podcast, the podcast for people who want to learn more about building and managing websites. I'm Sean Smith, one of your co-hosts and with me as usual, we have Amanda Lutz.

Hey Sean, how are you? Good, good. And Mike Miller. Hello everybody. And today we have a special guest returning to the podcast, make some a friend of our show, Christopher Nandy. He helps people learn vanilla JavaScript believes.

there's a simpler more resilient way to make things for the web, creates courses, ebooks, and runs online workshops. He also maintains a JavaScript toolkit, hosts his own podcast, and develops a developer tips newsletter. He is a busy guy, and he's here to talk to us

about ADHD and working on in the web, or maybe just life in general with ADHD. A little bit of both. Thank you all so much for having me. It's great to be back on the show. Hey. Chris. Yeah, thanks for being here. So let's uh, can we just jump right into the core of

this whole thing? You are living with ADHD. What is ADHD? Yeah, so um, ADHD is kind of badly named. So ADHD stands for attention deficit hyperactivity disorder. Um, and I think uh, depending on when you grew up, you might associate it with, uh, that really hyperactive

kid in class. That was always me. Um, you might also, uh, kind of picture something. someone who's a little like spacey and aloof and that can also absolutely sometimes be me. The problem with I think the naming of ADHD is it's not so much that you have a deficit

of attention. There's not a shortage of it. You just have trouble regulating it. So that sometimes means that you have just a lot of things bouncing around in your head and your brain is constantly flittering from one to the other.

But other times it can actually cause the opposite problem where you become hyper focused on just... one thing to the detriment of all the other things around you, including important work projects, eating food,

going to the bathroom, just general self-care. It can be a really fun roller coaster. And there's a whole myriad of other things that come along with ADHD, not everyone's ADHD experiences is exactly the same.

But I think the most accurate description, I once had a coworker say that she imagined being in my head like being a little dog, like a puppy inside one of those lottery ball machines and every like.

Every one of the balls bouncing around was like an idea and the dog was just like constantly bouncing around to all of them Very very accurate very very much what being at my head is like Yeah, and within the HD there's even

different kind of they're called subtypes of ADHD So some folks have the distractibility without the hyperactivity some people have the hyperactivity without the distractibility And a good chunk of people have both

Where do you stand? I Have it's called combined subtype. So I have both I'm a very hyper. I'm also I've slowed a little bit as I've gotten older my metabolism has has worn out, but like I used to be like

Again with the puppy analogies like when a puppy comes into a room full of people and just bounces all over the place and has an Accident on the floor like that was always me at parties and stuff do you think do you think that's actually though because of

Getting older and your metabolism or do you think it could be because of getting older and? recognizing that you are dealing with this and learning coping mechanisms and and more lifestyle stuff as opposed to

Metabolism. Yeah, that's a that's a great question. I am I think for me personally, a lot of it is just that my overall energy levels have slowed. So I still feel a lot of the mental hyperactivity.

I'm just less physically hyper. I do know for some people it is like I've developed coping mechanisms. It's often referred to as masking where like you put on a persona that's not who you really would be if you didn't try to restrain yourself a little bit.

I am just notoriously bad at that. I generally do not mask. which has its own pros and cons. I've been able to turn it into a benefit, but it can create some issues in professional situations. But yeah, for me personally, a lot of it

has honestly just been like, I am a lot more tired than I was a decade ago. I think we all are. Yeah, and you know, it's funny, like just as a tangent, another thing I'm great at because of the ADHD.

One of the things you'll hear from a lot of folks with ADHD is that they do some of their like my people do some of our best thinking at night when it's late and you're feeling kind of tired and a lot of that has to do with the fact that it's like it's quiet most other people are beds

in beds there's fewer distractions and because you get a little tired your brain like finally slows down and you can focus on like one thing without having a million other things kind of pulling you in different directions. Interesting. Yeah so being tired helps a lot. I'm not recommending

people like to literally sleep deprived. themselves or anything. But, but you know, I do some of my best work at night. So Chris, when were you first diagnosed? Were you diagnosed as a child or as an

adult? Yeah, I was person I was diagnosed as a kid. This was back in the like 80s, early 90s when ADHD was really new. And the only real treatment for it was riddling. And there was a lot of like doctors who would either over prescribe

it because they were still trying to work out like what appropriate dosing was. This was also back when ADHD was the hyperactive kid thing, and there was a lot of stigma around it. So I never actually got treated for it.

It's one of those things I grew up newing I had, but never really did anything about or connected with a lot of the challenges I had academically when I was in high school and college, the lack of impulse control that sometimes comes along

with it, and my difficulty getting things done when I first started working professionally. It wasn't until actually just like five years or so ago when I started revisiting ADHD literature and realizing

we have learned a lot in the last 30 something years and a lot of things that I always just thought were weird quirks or personal failings on my part are actually ADHD related. Just a whole slew of things from impulse control to just general high. I always thought I was just like a really emo

person but like high levels of emotional sensitivity and rejection sensitivity are a hallmark of ADHD. for a lot of folks. Yeah, so there's just a whole bunch of interconnected things that I discovered about myself only recently.

So I was diagnosed as a kid, but in a lot of ways, my experience with having ADHD is not dissimilar from folks who realize they have it as adults, which is a really shockingly large number of the ADHD population.

I think because of that increased awareness, a lot of folks are getting diagnosed now in their 30s, 40s, 50s and beyond. Yeah, I've heard that even more recently into adulthood, more women get diagnosed then.

Because in the 80s and in the 90s, when we were growing up, it was always the little boy, the little boy. who couldn't sit the little boy who couldn't pay attention. And now that I think there's more research

and there's more awareness and there's not as big a stigma and more people are talking about it. And it has become this like huge spectrum. I think a lot more adults are realizing and a lot more women are being,

is diagnosed the right word or just more aware of it? Yeah, diagnosed is the right word. And on the kind of the note of women being diagnosed, one of the challenges with getting a diagnosis as a woman

is for a lot of women ADHD manifests as the distracted subtype without the hyperactivity. And so for years, women with ADHD were often just labeled as like, you know, high potential doesn't live up to it, right?

Or like they'd get put on the advanced kid track where you get thrown into those like accelerated courses and everything and then kind of like flunk out. And it's only been recently when they've realized though that this takes different forms.

And there's even different diagnostic criteria for women now to make it more likely they get diagnosed. I'm learning more and more and more that women just get screwed with so many things like women having heart attacks.

And the three guys are laughing. Submits and cutting. off. Women having heart attacks present differently than men having heart attacks and the symptoms are different and it's yeah a lot a lot of medical stuff is very gender gender biased

and we're gonna go back and talk about Chris now instead of my issues. No, I mean if you want to unpack that Amanda I would be I would be out because you're a hundred another time another time I want to talk about right.

Yeah that is a fantastic fantastic topic though but you're absolutely right and so one of the things that just I guess as an aside and I will make sure that we get a link to this in the show notes but there is a website that has several like if you think do I have ADHD

or you're not sure obviously. Honestly, a professional diagnosis is a worthwhile tool to have, especially if you think that like medication might be an important part of your treatment if you think you have it.

But there are also some self-tests that you can do. Attitude, magazine, ADD, etude, magazine. They have a pair of self-diagnostic tests and they actually have a separate one for women that takes into account the fact that it manifests a little bit differently.

I'm not always off to it. I have met women who have the hyperactivity. It's just way less common. So I'll make sure we get some links to those in the show notes if anybody's curious if they have it or not.

Absolutely. Yeah. Have you seen the... I saw recently someone shared like a Venn diagram. I think it had ADHD and autism and giftedness maybe were the three circles and they obviously overlap and had to do with like

Topic switching and things like that There's all kinds of different things that are some of them share and some of them don't and have you seen that? I don't know yet. I have I saw one that it was it was ADHD autism and OCD was the one that I saw

They have So a lot it's not it's obviously not a hundred percent overlap But a lot of folks with ADHD have autism and vice versa Which can often make getting diagnosed with both if you have if you have them a little bit more difficult because

There's so much overlap and sometimes it's difficult to rule out like You know is it one is it the other is it both? I've also heard some emerging schools of thought that autism and ADHD are both part of one big spectrum and what we've historically thought of as two different conditions might

actually be the same thing. I don't think that's mainstream yet, but there's some immersion in thinking around that. But actually a big part of my rediscovery of my ADHD was because I thought I had autism

or ASD because of a whole bunch of things that, again, I always thought of ADHD as I'm just hyper and I have all this other stuff that's not that. And yeah, it turns out there's a ton of overlap. One of the most difficult...

things with getting diagnosed with either is identifying like, okay, I have all these symptoms. It could be either one. Is it one of those two? Is it both? Yeah, it gets really complicated. And that's where having a professional opinion can be helpful.

Well, those Amanda as you alluded to, a lot of medical professionals don't always listen to their patients. It's way worse with women. But oftentimes, a lot of the folks doing diagnoses are not folks with ADHD or autism themselves. And so they

don't have like that, that same understanding of what the conditions or symptoms are. One of the problems for years with ADHD, and I believe also with autism, is that a lot of the symptoms related with ADHD, or the things you experience

with ADHD, are not things that are easily measured and like quantified. And so like, I think emotional sensitivity, for example, a lot of folks with ADHD get really upset over things that would be considered like minor emotional setbacks for other folks,

or neurotypical folks. But quantifying like how big is an emotional reaction, and is this outside the realm of like, typical is much harder to quantify than something like, do they bounce around a lot, you know, like it's much easier to physically observe that than

to like gauge how big is an emotional reaction. Well everything emotional and mental is none of it's quantifiable, it's always hard to that down. Yeah, so for sure. You are a web developer and we're here doing web

development podcasts. So just dig into this a little deeper, but at a high level, how does your ADHD impact your career as a web developer? You know, like is it good, bad, both? What's going on there? Yes, yeah, it's a blessing and a curse as I

think a lot of folks with ADHD will tell you. So the good, let's start there. So I think I have found that there's a shocking number of developers who have ADHD. And I think a lot about coding itself kind of attracts folks who have ADHD because

you can put you into this really like. So one thing worth mentioning, it's currently believed that one of the big causes of ADHD is a shortage of dopamine in the brain. Your brain doesn't make enough of it the way a neurotypical brain would. And so you seek novelty and

thrill and things that cause dopamine to get spiked in your brain. So for a lot of developers with ADHD. Coding because it's this immediate feedback loop. If I did a thing, I get to see the result.

I did a thing. I get to see the result. Really triggers that dopamine loop, the same way that playing a video game or pulling refresh on social media might. And so the benefit of this for a developer

is when I get pointed at a big hairy challenge, like, oh, we've got this problem. We can't figure it out. And we need to do this big new thing. I can absolutely crush projects like that. My hyper focus kicks in.

And I will go into tunnel vision and spend like 14 hours working on a thing and it will feel like no time at all has passed because one Other fun thing about ADHD is you get time blindness and you have no

Real ability of how much time has or hasn't passed or how long things take which is also it down downside that we'll talk about in a minute So I can remember one particular professional project I did about five months worth of work in a month and it was a man

I just got so much done like just hyper productive quick quick question to cut you off all done Did you still build the client for the five months it would have taken? This was actually at a day job. So I got paid my employer made out

Very handsomely right they got five months worth of work in a month The flip side of that is then for the like several months after that I was in this weird kind of like let down super distracted like nothing is a

Filling is this kind of kind of phase and so it ends up being a bit of a wash where you're overly productive during some periods You and under productive during others. But there are also some things that are particularly challenging,

especially in an employer type environment. So if someone tells you something, you don't write it down right away, you forget. ADHD folks usually have large hard drives and very limited amounts of RAM

to put it in computer terms, right? So I can hold one or two things in my head and then they're gone. So if I don't write them down and save them somewhere, that's it. It's tough to get started on tasks.

Once you do, you become a bit of a juggernaut. or not, you just cannot stop. But it's tough to get started. And so if you're in an environment where there's a lot of distractions and interruptions,

frequent meetings, standups, open office environments, getting anything done can be absolute hell because you'll start working on something, you'll get interrupted. And then it takes you almost as long as you spent

actually doing the work to just get back into it in the first place. Yeah, so a lot of like, I tell a lot of my students with ADHD that a lot of the challenges of working with ADHD are not the ADHD itself.

They're a working environment that's that's structured around the needs of neurotypical folks when you are not. And so a big part of what I advocate for is trying to structure your work and your life

in a way that works for your brain rather than a neurotypical person's brain, which is not always possible, but as much as you can, it's a great thing to do. I have a question for you. So say I'm an employer and I've hired a developer and he has ADHD.

What are some things that I can do to make life easier for him and more productive for me? Yeah, that's a great question. So it's going to vary from person to person because everyone's ADHD experience is a little

unique. Oh, sure. And so I think literally the best thing you can do. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay.

Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. right off the start is asking them what they prefer. Do they have any specific needs? Any particular wants or ways they work best? So just like as an example, right, I hate stand-ups.

They are the worst possible thing for me. They ruin my whole day. But I have some students who actually really enjoy them because they find it gets their brain into work mode and kind of points them in a direction for the day.

Whereas for me, it's like, oh, it's this tedious thing I have to do before I can start working. So everyone's experience is a little bit different. But... At kind of a high level, things like allowing your employee to work,

when and where they feel best rather than like everybody has to come into an office and be butts and seeds from nine to five is a huge one. And I don't think that's just an ADHD thing. I think that's most people.

But for ADHD in particular, it is acutely painful to be in an office environment with an open office environment with a lot of distractions. Also, sometimes someone with ADHD's peak hours are not normal working out.

as I mentioned before, a lot of times my people do some of our best work at night. And I might be totally useless from 9 to 11 and then things kick in for me. And so allowing odd work hours can be useful.

Putting things in writing rather than just telling people verbally can also be really helpful. Because if you're talking, I have two options. I can listen or I can take notes. I can't do both. And if you tell me too much at once, when I go to take notes later,

I will have forgotten half of what you said. That's a good rule in general for most people, by the way, just right. It really is. But task shifting. It's one of these things. A lot of this advice is just general good advice,

but it's more acutely painful for folks with certain neurological divergence. So as an ADHD person, task shifting is even harder for me than others. Similarly, there's certain types of work that I think folks with ADHD are often better at. So like

minutia work and like just lots of repetitive tasks that don't particularly change all that much, can be really, really, they're super boring to the point that it's hard to do them. Even like weird thing, I've sometimes put off

for three months making a phone call that's taken 10 months just because the idea of picking up the phone and pressing the numbers was overwhelming. Whereas big, challenging projects really spark that novelty

trigger in the brain and can really get the most out of it. Someone with ADHD. The other thing along those same lines, that would be. aware of is that same behavior can lead to burnout, right? Where you spend so much time focused on the exciting thing

that you don't take the time you need to recharge and you burn yourself out. So if I were a manager of someone with ADHD, I would probably also try to be cognizant of the fact that if I don't force some downtime

or if I just try to stack a big project after a big project on someone with ADHD, they're gonna burn themselves out and that's gonna be bad for everybody, them and me. Which is hard for, there are a lot of management types

who as soon as you see somebody, an employee who's done like five months worth of work in one month, they all have a and start expecting those kinds of hours and results all the time, which isn't healthy,

but they're all about that bottom dollar. Right. Yeah. The other thing that I've struggled with just personally is I worked at an employer once where they shifted from annual performance reviews to quarterly.

That went really bad for me because I would have some quarters where I was awesome and some quarters where I was terrible. Whereas when they were just looking at the whole year in aggregate, it was much more

like events. And so it can create this. really like skewed perception of your performance, you know, when you have those tighter performance review cycles. Right. The immediate feedback is nice but having

some sort of like grade tied to it and that can also trigger all sorts of like anxiety and stuff. Yeah. Quarterly feedback is excessive for anybody like what what employer has the time to do that? Sorry, to distract them. No, it was driving me

nuts that somebody was like quarterly reviews for all of their employees. That can say this was like a VC firm where I think they were honestly just looking for like. to cut because they were trying to drive up,

stop, you know, their return on investment or whatever, their valuation. But, you know, I had the other thing, I had mentioned time blindness. So, something in the ADHD brain, I'm not entirely sure what the biological mechanism

for this is, but it makes it really difficult for us to perceive time accurately or normally. So, if you ask me how long a task is going to take, I have absolutely no idea. Mostly because I don't really,

even when I'm doing the task, I have no idea how much. time I've actually spent doing it until I look at a clock and like do the math. Even if I've done a task before, I cannot tell you how long it's going to take and there's

no guarantee that it'll take me the same amount of time the next time. And so certain types of jobs, like if you're in an agency environment where they need like really tight estimates and it's going to take me eight hours to do this thing and I'll have

a like it can be really, really, really difficult. The irony of course is that if you set a deadline, an ADHD person may spend six hours staring at me. at their computer wondering how to start. And then the last two hours actually getting the thing.

So would they end up hitting their projected estimate? But it's like a mad scramble in those last two hours because that deadline creates a sense of urgency that then triggers that excited dopamine release again.

And they start working at it. Yeah, so there's a lot of ups and downs. And I have spent a lifetime professionally trying to structure my work so that it works for me rather than the other way around.

One thing that I have had immense privilege of being able to do is being really open up about my ADHD with managers in the last few years that I worked properly employed before I went off to do education and consulting full time.

And I was very lucky to have managers who understood and were willing to work with me on it. I talk to a lot of folks who either don't feel comfortable doing that because they're more junior or they happen to be part of some other group

where they feel like they're already under more scrutiny. So like female developers or, you know, people. who were people of color, other marginalized communities, LGBTQ. I literally have talked to someone,

a friend of mine who's black, who was like, I don't, I already feel like I have more of a target on my back because of my skin color. I don't want to give them another reason to scrutinize my work. So I never tell anybody I have ADHD. And, you know, so again, I'm saying all this as like

a cishet white dude with like just immense amounts of social privilege. But if you were in that position, talking about it with your employer can be helpful. In many countries, it's a protected group. So like in the United States, where I live, you are acting.

eligible for disability accommodations in the workplace. If you say you have ADHD, I have heard stories that some employers are like, we don't even have a form for that. What would that look like? Right? So you do have to really feel comfortable

being an advocate for yourself, but it can be a good thing if you're in a position to do so. To jump back to the time blindness, as a self-employed person, how do you deal with not knowing how long something's going to do when you

need to like give a quote to a client? And then he's like, well you want this website built or you want this new section on a website. I'm bad at estimating and I think a struggle that for a lot of to use the word

you mentioned before a neurotypical people have how do you deal with it when you don't even know how long it's taking you in the past to do something. Yeah I don't build by the hour so I just shout out to Jonathan Stark over at

Jonathan Stark.com he he wrote this book a while back called Hourly Billing is Nuts where he talked about how Hourly Billing misaligns you know the incentives of the person doing the work. and the person paying for it.

And so I quote on a project. So like when I do work, I say, it will cost you X, I will give you Y, it could take a week, it could take three weeks, we're gonna do it until we get it right. So the focus is really on the quality of the deliverable

rather than on how long it takes. Yeah, I like Jonathan Stark, but I also work with agencies that they want to know how many hours because that's how they want me to build up the world. Or the reverse, it has to launch on this.

date. So get it done by then. Yeah. So that thing that has to launch on this date, that's fine for me. Because then I just go into like overdrive, hyper focus mode, and just like knock it out. But yeah, it's more the like what Sean just described,

the whole how many hours is going to take we need to know so we can give an estimate. Like if you're subcontracting through an agency or whatever, I did that for a while and it was absolute hell for me. It just does not work for me at all. The

last time I did that, I ended up, it was I had I had a time tracker app that I was using to keep track of my hours. Coming up with estimates was like I would just make things up and then try to hit those hours. Like oftentimes it would take less time. Sometimes it

would take a little bit more. But yeah, it's not for me. The hourly. Some work fun at all. Okay, so you mentioned it a little bit earlier. I was going to ask, do you recommend or do you tell people about your ADHD up front? You've kind of covered that

pretty well. Let me just jump to my next quick question there is when people learn that you have ADHD, what typically is the reaction? Do you get people? who are like, I don't know how to deal with you,

or do they just not care what do people tend to say? Yeah, no, that's great. So usually that, what you just described, the I don't know how to deal with you, that happens before they find out I have ADHD, right?

So like, you're a lot is a common thing. You'll hear about people with ADHD, especially folks who have hyperactivity or combined subtype, just because we are so high energy. And it can be really like intense for some people.

So usually when I disclose I have ADHD, I get that like, oh, that explains a lot. Or if it's someone who, every now and then I'll get the more reserved like, okay, increasingly in the tech world,

I get a lot of like, oh my God, me too, or I was just recently diagnosed, or I've been suspecting I have ADHD, or someone else I know has ADHD. So it's become a lot more common. One of the big reasons I like to talk about it though,

is I like to normalize it, because I feel like a lot of folks who have it, or thinking they might have it, sometimes feel uncomfortable with it, because of that stigma from back when we were all growing up.

And so a big part of what I try to do is, break that stigma by being really open about the fact that I have it, because I can, and not everybody, has that level of comfort. Mm-hmm, okay, awesome.

I don't think I've ever really had like a negative reaction to it. Yeah, I think the worst I've ever gotten is just kind of the neutral like, okay, moving on. Right, you know. Okay. You talked earlier about your students and things that you do while you're teaching.

I'm sure everyone is tired of hearing about it. I also teach part-time at a college here in Canada. I teach web development. What are some of the things as a teacher that I could do to help support some of my students?

Yeah, that's a great question. So I am and I've actually ended up with my ADHD student population kind of by accident. Before I ever talked about public life. having it, I would tend to write courses that were really short and narrow and project oriented

because that's just how I like to learn. And then I ended up with a student population that's like 40% ADHD or something. And it turns out they were just attracted to that style of learning as well.

But so one of the things that I've found personally is in large part I think because of the lack of RAM, just that we don't have a big working memory, teaching more narrowly scoped projects. If you are narrowly scoped lessons, so like a lot of I'm gonna make the analogy to like online courses

I know like you teach college and it's a little bit different, but a lot of online courses are like 80 hours everything you need to know about and for someone like me that is wildly overwhelming whereas

you know learn the ins and outs of This narrow little topic is much more appealing because I feel like I'm not gonna get distracted halfway through and move on and have wasted my money So an analog for teaching would be having

kind of shorter lesson cycles. And then I guess the other piece of this is our, I think most folks brains, but like ADHD brains, perhaps a little bit more so, tend to lock stuff in or stay engaged better

when we're actually doing things rather than just trying to passively absorb information. And so a lot of my teaching is oriented around, learn a thing, do a thing, repeat in really short cycles. One or two little topics, okay go practice, come back, repeat.

I know that doesn't always work in all contexts, but it can be very successful. Okay, thank you. You're welcome. Thank you for asking. Chris has started this new community for ADHD developers. He's got a podcast, a newsletter, and a community called ADHD FTW.

I assume that's for the win. That's correct. Exclamation point. What is the goal of this? What do you expect for people to get out of it? What do you hope to put into it and get out of it yourself?

Yeah, great questions. One of the things I hear from a lot of both my students and even just the general developer population with ADHD is that... I feel like my ADHD is a gift. ADHD is a gift that has let me do lots of amazing things

and sometimes gives me superpowers. But I talk to a lot of folks who don't feel that way. They feel like it's holding them back. They feel like they're really struggling. I felt like that when I started working professionally.

I legitimately thought I was gonna get fired from my first professional job because I just could not keep track of all the stuff that was getting thrown at me or get anything done. And so a big part of what I'm trying to do

is provide a place for folks with ADHD who work in our field to feel comfortable asking questions, talking about it, sharing their struggles, getting feedback, and also creating a toolkit of resources

to help them work more effectively, unlock those neurodivergent superpowers and really thrive personally and professionally. What's in it for me is I was once that lost person who felt like I did not have a lot of resources.

And over the last few years, I've gotten a lot of great information from other folks. I also just as an ADHD person, I come alive when I'm in the company of other folks with ADHD. It's like this hive mind kind of thing happens

and y'all just like, like a swarm of bees just light up with energy. And so I just, I like being around that energy a lot and I want more of it in my life. Nice. That's awesome. So what, is your community gonna be having like a slack

or a discord or, I mean, there's a newsletter that I'm aware of and I assume that newsletter is gonna be similar to your JavaScript one where it's like this or on third podcast. Short little bites of two to three minutes.

Absolutely. Yeah, so if you head over to adhdftw.com or adhdforthewind.com, because I realized saying ADHD, F-T-W is a mouthful, so I have both domains now. You can find the newsletter. There's a podcast that comes out twice a week,

and it is, Sean, as you noted, just short little tips and tricks. There's also a Discord community where you can meet and talk with other folks with ADHD. I will probably grow it out with more stuff.

Over time, I'm just kind of seeing how this thing evolves. That's really cool. I'm just going to go back to the end of the video. I'm just going to go back to the end of the video. I'm just going to go back to the end of the video.

I'm just going to go back to the end of the video. I'm just going to go back to the end of the video. We'll definitely include links to that in the show notes when the episode comes out. Awesome, thank you.

Yeah, it's really, there's a lot of people in our industry of course who are struggling or just living with all kinds of learning disabilities, anxiety, whatever else. We've talked about it a few times.

So it's really commendable that you're putting together this program to kind of help people that are like you. And because I'm sure you're right, there's probably plenty of them out there who could benefit from this.

So good for you. It's great. Thank you. I just want to tie it into web development even a little bit more. We're all concerned about accessibility, but this is basically hidden accessibility because it's not somebody in a wheelchair.

It's all in your head. And I'm not saying that in the pejorative sense, I mean it's literally in your head. Yeah, that's true. Yeah, it's not as visible as other forms of disability sometimes take for sure.

There's a whole. other conversation to be had around UX of neurodivergence and what that means in terms of like your content strategy and information architecture and it's a whole, I'm not even sure I'm necessarily the most qualified person

to talk about that sort of thing, but within the accessibility space, there is kind of a subset of folks who particularly specialize around how you build websites that take neurodivergence into account.

Right, that's really cool. Okay, well, Chris, thank you so much for coming back in the show. It's great to hear from you again and we'll put all these links to all this stuff we talked about in the show notes.

Please check them out. Thank you so much, Chris. Thanks, Chris. Thanks for having me. The website 101 podcast is hosted by me, Amanda Lutz. You can also find me online at amandalutes.com. And by me, Mike Mela, find me online at belikewater.ca or on socials at Mike Mela.

I'm Sean Smith, your co-host. You can find me online at my website, caffeinecreation.ca and link then at caffeine creations. Hello and welcome to another episode of the website 101 podcast, the podcast for

people who want to learn more about building and managing weapons. Managing weapons. Okay. Hold different skillset. Take two.